The rebel leader: Why great leaders break the rules

Ingrid Hu Dahl (00:00):
Great leaders break the rules because they understand that swimming within the status quo isn’t getting us anywhere. Choosing to be curious and empathetic with our own humanity, our journey and those of others is the most important work in our life.

Hannah Beaver (00:22):
You are listening to How to Make a Leader a leadership development podcast from Big Think Plus, where we take the biggest ideas from the best minds in learning and development and distill them into actionable insights. I’m your host, Hannah Beaver. What if today’s leaders aren’t those who are playing it safe, but those that are breaking the rules? Today’s guest argues that authentic leadership isn’t about conformity. It’s about rebellion. From touring as a punk musician to leading leadership development teams at companies such as Gap, meta and Capital One, to now coaching Fortune 500 executives, Ingrid Hu Dahl has discovered that the most transformative leaders aren’t afraid to disrupt, challenge and rebel against the status quo. Ingrid has just released her first book and memoir Sun Shining on Morning Snow. She’ll talk about her journey through punk music going on tour and being part of multiple bands founding the Willie Mae Rock Camp in Brooklyn, New York and living as a mixed race queer leader.

(01:32):
We’ll discuss some lessons learned from her personal journey and how she applies those in a leadership development context. I’m really, really excited for this conversation and I hope you enjoy Ingrid. I am so delighted to have you here for the conversation today. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Thanks Hannah for having me. I’m so honored. In our last conversation, Ingrid and I were talking about leadership and just the title of the podcast, How to Make a Leader, and one of the things that we were discussing was what makes a great leader, Ingrid’s, personal take on leadership, and we talked about the concept of the rebel leader and in Ingrid’s book, which I have right here, nearly released as I mentioned, is gorgeous. There it is with its cover. Ingrid, you talk about reclaiming rebellion. So as you read the book we kind of go on a journey of your life and your story and what’s led you to where you are today. So when did you first realize that rebellion wasn’t just part of who you are but could also be a catalyst for leadership? I’m curious about how you connect the two.

Ingrid Hu Dahl (02:43):
It’s interesting. In the book I bring you on a journey where I’m five years old and it’s the first time that I meet a horse and rider and I think what I learned because horseback riding can be quite solo, a lot of my experiences growing up mixed race were feeling very solo and internal and silent. I would actually say that it was the Rock Camp for Girls,

(03:10):
Which is a big chapter in the book, being in this environment where there was absolutely the antithesis of mean girl culture, but tremendous outpouring of support and volunteers and female musicians. When we think about the stage and women getting up on stage and it’s intimidating being on a stage, especially as a young kid, but there you are in support of your kind of teammates if you will. Your band mates are your teammates and then you have all of these older women cheering you on. That was perhaps the first time I realized that part of my role as a future leader was to cheer others on and to notice when there is a key moment to lean in and be very, very present guiding or coaching a team similar to guiding girls who are in a band for the very first time in their lives. There’s so many dynamics that are so similar with adults as teenagers and eight year olds who are just trying to figure out how to make song.

(04:07):
They have different skill sets. They don’t always have the same level of expertise or experience, and yet they all succeed in making a song. They all perform and even if they’re on the actual day of the show, they play the wrong note. They all had a good time. So the performance similar to teams is around the experience and hopefully it has high impact. Certainly it did with the people who were attending and felt amazing. I often find that coming out of that solo ness that I was sharing earlier is the awakening of what it could be and experimenting with a space where you do not feel any kind of pressure to be perfect, any kind of threat of meanness or judgment, but only people cheering you on and believing in you where you are in the moment meeting you there. It’s very powerful.

Hannah Beaver (05:04):
Thank you for reminding me of the cheerleader concept. I actually had this highlighted in my note that was a perfect segue, not planned, but I loved how you mentioned that your leadership approach, you learned how to be a cheerleader and that is kind of one of the defining principles of how you approach leadership. So I’m curious, how do you continue today to carry this into your leadership coaching? I know you work with many, many folks, many executives that are working in very high stress, high pressure environments. How do you bring on that role of cheerleader and implement that from a coaching perspective?

Ingrid Hu Dahl (05:41):
That’s a great question. I’d say that in certain moments that cheerleading is super, super useful. I find that when I coach some of my CEO clients, it’s different. It’s meeting them in that quiet solo space and reminding them that they’re not alone. It’s sort of like in that movie soul, it’s a Pixar movie and when you get into this vortex of watching over-exaggerated, very twisted versions of reality that are harming you, I often will meet a client in that space and try to question, what is this? Why are we here? And kind of coax them to come outside of it. That can happen over time. We get stuck in this vortex of thought. We exaggerate how horrible we performed or how everybody hates us or whatever that mixed message is, and it just gets ramped up and ramped up and we get quieter and quieter and more scared.

(06:43):
So fear takes over and half the time you don’t even realize. It might come across as like I’m the lone wolf and I have to show up as strong even in the face of people talking about me poorly, which could be a huge assumption. So yeah, I think cheering them on comes when they have finally let go of sitting in that vortex and have chosen to be incredibly brave. So the moment that they’re the most scared is actually not when their comfort in the circle of fear getting out of that and saying, no, we got to leave this comfort, move into even what’s more scary, which is to say, oh, I have been grappling with this and now’s the time for me to come out of it. I need to unlearn, I need to unblock, I need to expose, I need to accept, be vulnerable, and also say to myself, I’m imperfect and it’s okay to need help and it’s okay to say, I don’t know, maybe you made a mistake that’s okay to own and to feel like you’re not going to have your entire world implode.

(07:51):
Maybe that’s not true. That is the moment where I love to cheer people on and say, keep going. It’s scary, but this is where you’re supposed to be. Choose your truth, choose boldness, and that’s the real work of the rubble. You think about a couple bands in the past where the way that they were trained to be up on stage is to throw all kinds of fecal matter and beer bottles and all kinds of gross stuff and people shouting and saying horrible things and what that’s doing is kind of exaggerating how people react to rebellion, to somebody saying, I’m not going to prescribe to these gender norms. I’m not going to prescribe to these social constructs that are harming me or feeling like I’m caged in and I’m willing no matter what kind of stuff gets thrown at me because of choosing myself, choosing my truth. I also attest to coming out as queer as that too. You get a lot of things thrown at you and there’s a braveness in saying despite that, despite those threats, this is me. And I think the more people get to that place, the more a coach and other leaders need to be there to cheer you on and encourage you to continue showing up like that.

Hannah Beaver (09:16):
I really like that and it makes me think too about another thing that we discussed last time we chatted was around right now the narrative a lot is the world is changing. It’s a very difficult time, and so people are having challenges thrown at them at every level and especially leaders are feeling the impact of that given that they’re dealing with microenvironments in the workplace, more broader economic, global societal issues and pressures that are happening right now. So one challenge that you mentioned is around how leaders at the top can feel lonely, can feel that they have to take on their role and their responsibilities alone, but what other things or what other problems do you find that senior leaders are struggling with right now and what helps them in a constantly changing environment?

Ingrid Hu Dahl (10:09):
I’d say that whatever used to work that doesn’t feel like your integrity let go of, because there’s plenty of leaders who’ve been taught how to land grab, how do I build an empire? How do I elbow my way to the top and know other people who look like me who are my same gender, et cetera, can come here? Otherwise, it’s a competition that still exists. There’s still the glass ceiling, the bamboo ceiling, the concrete ceiling, all those things still exist. I think leaders have a great opportunity right now, honestly, I think this is the most rebellious thing that perhaps they could do is step away from their computer, step away from their office, go outside and slow down so much in a system to exactly what you said and the amygdala is tired, right? There’s just so much reactivity, so much stress, so much insecurity and fear and the stimulation of that cortisol so high.

(11:11):
We need to kind of force a reset to recenter. So one of the things that I like to recommend that can be fast is, and you don’t have to force yourself to go outside, but I do highly recommend being outside and for some people it’s just suddenly paying attention to your breath, really making sure your posture is just feeling like it’s beautifully centered within your space. So perhaps picturing yourself as a tree and being next to a tree and your roots are going down all throughout the building and the branches are, you can already feel that coming out of your beautiful shoulders in your head and your arms. If you go in tree pose or mountain pose in and then you picture actually something that gives you joy, maybe your dog does something or your cat or oh God, I just love it when I see this happening in the world and you feel that joy where you smile.

(12:07):
Those three things are actually around your hormone regulations. So the posture is producing more testosterone. The smiling of something that truly brings you joy is bringing in more oxytocin and paying attention to your breath and slowing down or moving into a space that is completely different. To do this actually reduces cortisol and those three things immediately recenter us and then you can go back. You have to have a strategy to make space and recenter because every single 30 minute meeting, everything that’s happening, you’re dealing with many, many people who might not have centered and it can feel chaotic and exhausting. I find that the more that people create space for their teams to do that, to really kind of, whoa, let’s check out the assumptions. What’s urgent? Let’s slow down, let’s high prioritize certain things, meet people where they are because they’re going to be heightened in the amygdala constantly.

(13:10):
So if people are like, yep, fight, flight, freeze, you probably see that on your teams, various different iterations. So the people who are probably having more of a fight response probably want to do things, so how can you help them recenter and decide on the clarity of what to do? One thing, one thing, the folks that are probably freezing need to be met, connect, give them some space or meet them where they are and the folks that are willing to flee maybe actually have them go to another team and chat with them about their strategy, allow the movement to happen and then to recenter and come back as a team. But control in this environment is a farce. So if you feel like you’re controlling your leadership to be strong and the winner, and we’re going to just do this no matter what, this is a great moment to let go of that because people are terrified, they’re scared, and this is a moment for leaders to really show tremendous amount of empathy and heart and slow things down. As leaders, we have the power to slow it down, but if we just kind of sit back and say, okay, we’re just going to allow this to go at Mach five and exhaust myself and everybody and all of our resources, that’s falling into kind of a factory mindset of a system instead of the rebelliousness of saying, I get to slow this down.

Hannah Beaver (14:37):
I love the concept too that everyone is different. You said the fight, flight, freeze, and just knowing that we’re all different human beings that don’t only exist in the workplace.

Ingrid Hu Dahl (14:47):
That’s right.

Hannah Beaver (14:48):
Approaching each employee and meeting them they are I think is just so, so important. So in the book you talk about your mother and her professional journey as a tech pioneer in mobility. So how did she demonstrate exceptional leadership to you at a young age when you were watching her progress in her career in some of the challenges and successes that she was facing?

Ingrid Hu Dahl (15:13):
Man, there was this amazing moment, it must have been like, bring your kid to Workday. She had a team of about a hundred software engineers, and I loved seeing all these people, love my mom and truly know that she had their back. She thought about them and their families. She really had very little ego and she just had this very inspiring vision of the future and inspired people to follow that vision, which was very much a pioneer in mobile phones. I remember there was an executive assistant who kept coming up to my mom or something like, oh, there’s more people who want to come to this lunch. My mom is just like, it’s fine. Let’s go. It’s all good. She expanded the table literally. She welcomed people. She invited people. She was very calm and inviting about her spirit in that way. I think what I learned from her is going back to being a kid and seeing despite these circumstances where maybe white men or men get hired into the higher role in between you and your boss or that bamboo ceiling and glass ceiling are still there.

(16:20):
You don’t change the way you lead. You don’t let that sour your spirit to the point where it infects your team. It might’ve kind of infected our home life at times, but I learned that for people who are under your care, they’re under your care, support them, but you don’t have to be a martyr about it. So there’s some boundaries around it, but I love that despite what she experienced as a leader, she always wanted to give back and create and curate an experience for others that was amplifying and thriving and inclusive and considerate of them. Ingrid,

Hannah Beaver (16:59):
Why do great leaders break the rules?

Ingrid Hu Dahl (17:02):
Because they understand that swimming within the status quo isn’t getting us anywhere, not in the corporate environment, not in our social or global environments. That change and transformation, connecting and relating across difference, choosing to be curious and empathetic with our own humanity, our journey and those of others is the most important work in our life. So breaking the rules, not just flowing within these systems and constructs breaking and challenging, the status quo is going to get us there. Let’s do that together. Let’s break the rules and experiment and have a playful time doing that. That joy that comes out of that breakage of rules can be the most transformational. I can’t wait for us to all experience that.

Hannah Beaver (18:07):
I would love to know if there is an example that you could perhaps share or a time when you’ve walked through breaking patterns of old behavior or that old school ways of leadership. How have you helped a leader break a pattern successfully, and could you talk through some of the techniques that you used and the behavior shift that happened as a result?

Ingrid Hu Dahl (18:30):
Yeah, absolutely. I love using cognitive behavior theory, so I’ve had several leaders who this has been really beneficial for in coaching and also being in corporate roles that I’ve had. So for example, with that kind of archetype of somebody who’s really land grabbing and I’ve learned it’s me and only me and this is what we’re going to do to survive, it’s me, not we, that kind of mentality. Looking at charting out just from the cognitive behavior theory, if I look at four boxes, 1, 2, 3, 4, and I learned this from learning as leadership, by the way, so shout out to them. The third box is literally what is the emotion that’s happening right now? Okay, I am feeling scared, I’m feeling misunderstood, but misunderstood is actually a belief. So let’s put that in box two because two is everything that is happening in our assessment or our assumption, our judgment about something. The inner thoughts that are coming in really go in box two. Box one is purely what would the camera catch?

(19:39):
Okay, so you’re in this meeting, these are the kind of facts that happened without any judgment and any emotion. Let’s just, what would the camera see? Okay, they would see people in a conference room, you’re up there and somebody else is responding. Literally, that’s it. You can’t say, that person disrespected me in front of everybody on purpose, just went with camera C, and then the final box is your behavior as a result of that second box. So when I feel scared and believe that I’m being misunderstood and disrespected, how I behave is always consistent with that belief and my behavior tends to be more controlling, more penalizing my team, harsher with my team. Okay, so why am I doing that? Okay, I am doing that because I feel again scared. Okay, am I actually in an environment where I’m unsafe? No, actually you’re positioned to be the most powerful, most safe person.

(20:48):
Okay, so I’m safe. I don’t need to be scared, and so I think it’s just helping people separate a little bit the emotions and the trigger, the beliefs that are happening based on something that could be construed in multiple different ways, and your choice is how you behave and react and tweaking your beliefs. If you recognize a pattern of like, wow, this always happens to me, and now that narrative of that belief is getting stronger and then it’s consistent with how I react, you get to change those things. Maybe that’s not what’s happening. How do I ask people with curiosity? Hey, I noticed in that meeting you stood up and shared your truth, and I appreciate that the way I interpreted was maybe you don’t believe I’m a good leader, or you’re challenging me in front of folks and I don’t want to misunderstand. Is that true for you?

(21:49):
That’s very vulnerable to ask, but it shows, I want to interrupt this. If this isn’t true, and I find nine times out of 10 we’re wrong, most of the times that person’s like, no, I actually am just so nervous about losing my job that I feel like if I don’t participate and prove my point of view, I’m the one who’s going to be acts next, has nothing to do with you. So nine times out of 10 we’re wrong, which is funny because we really believe or right, and that just helps chip away at that person’s narrative and then can offer different reactions, which hopefully are much more human-centered and empathetic and curious. What’s interesting, if you were to continue with that pattern, you also see how it impacts somebody else and how your belief and reactions then help make consistency of theirs, which creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.

(22:45):
So you actually are creating the very conditions that you are scared of and reliving those, and that is the danger. If we let this go too far, we actually are creating a path that is stuck and rebellious leadership is to break those and say, no, there’s a different way and a better way and a way that is completely out of the system and this norm, it’s not healthy and being inventive and playful about it. That truly to me is the epitome is when I see leaders who are like, despite these conditions of fear, despite the unknowns, how do we experiment and find play, not just to be innovative, that’s a great output or outcome, but just because we bought the experience and something’s going to come out of it. I was asking my team a while back, I was like, where do you think the reliability sharing comes from?

(23:38):
Because it’s not reciprocity, which is a value of mine per se, and they’re like, well, it’s because we all know they’re there for other, and when we connect and say we really need help and it’s real, we rally and we do it for each other. That’s like a new cycle. So I love seeing how new patterns can actually help amplify and elevate people’s experiences, whether they’re remote or hybrid, and I think some leaders don’t like that rebellion. I think they want everyone else who’s a leader to slot in. You have a role to play, don’t stand out as a leader. Don’t make this team so good where everybody else wants to join your team. And then it becomes this similar, what we talked about before that, oh, you’re empire building.

Hannah Beaver (24:32):
This is how it’s always been type of mentality and the fear of having a new structural framework, a way of thinking, because this is how it’s always been. If I’m a leader and I want to progress in the same way that everyone else above me has, this is how it’s always been type of mentality. Yeah,

Ingrid Hu Dahl (24:47):
That’s right.

Hannah Beaver (24:49):
I would love to hone in on what you mentioned about play, the importance of wonder and creating wonder and finding wonder in everyday life, and I think play is somewhat related to that. So how do we institute and introduce play in a workplace environment, which then as you mentioned goes on to create all these other positive impacts for your team and just for building community in general?

Ingrid Hu Dahl (25:12):
Okay, so I’ll use myself as an example. Okay. Writing a book, I’ve never done that before. So being a beginner at something, allowing yourself to be a complete infant again, truly it was like stumbling and learn to crawl and then eventually walk. It takes forever and it’s finally letting yourself be so bad at something at first and having it not be solo. So I had a writing coach

(25:40):
And she was just wonderfully met me where I was and encouraged me, taught me, she actually had this whole learning component, what is this and how do you craft multiple stories within one major story arc? These things conceptually, I’ve read hundreds of books, perhaps several of your listeners, but it doesn’t mean you know how to write a book. I didn’t know how to write a book, and I find that you get to a place where it finally got me to laugh about it because its like, why can’t I write midway chapter five, my writing coach responds and she’s based in Portugal, so it took some time, like 12 hours. I sent her a thing. I was like, eagerly waiting. She’s like, Ingrid, you found your writing voice? I was like, just now. She’s like, yes, chapter five, and you know what? Yes, you will have to rewrite the first part of the book, but don’t worry about that.

(26:35):
Keep going. And when she encouraged me to just like, yes, that’s going to be a big thing, but don’t worry about it now, don’t edit yourself. Just go, keep going. Anybody who’s a later in their careers who then go back to school would probably feel the same kind of like, oh, maybe you feel shame a little bit, or everybody’s so much younger. I definitely felt that way becoming a coach, but the point where I started laughing at myself and feeling fun and playful is when I realized that I’d been this leader, leadership coach, facilitator for so long and this moment in coaching where I learned I didn’t listen deeply. I didn’t listen at levels two and three, you’re not hard on yourself in that moment of realization. Instead, you’re like, what an opportunity for me to practice really listening. I’m going to practice that with my wife, with my family, with my team. How exciting. And then you become this inspiring sponge to just want to learn more and practice. The other thing about coaching, which was fun, I wasn’t good at asking what questions. Instead of saying, tell me what blah, blah, blah, which is very direct, what about that inspired you to solve it in that way? I’m so intrigued. Or why did you do it? That feels like, am I in trouble?

(27:57):
We’re not children here at work. I really can’t stand it when people are like, oh, your team is like your family or your children. I’m like, no, we’re adults. We’re not related. We’re here and hopefully we all choose to participate in belonging. Hopefully we all choose to participate in learning and growing and developing. That’s a choice. Not everybody wants that or chooses that.

Hannah Beaver (28:24):
What does it look like to embody inclusive leadership while leading through change or just leading your team, whether you’re a manager or your direct team or the CEO at a company? What does that look like?

Ingrid Hu Dahl (28:38):
I would say a lot of my trainings, which I’ve co-designed with DEI experts for hundreds of people, which has been such a joy truly to connect with folk, is back to the basics a bit going into your memory of what has been the most psychologically safe environment, what were the behaviors and the conditions where I felt safe, I felt encouraged? What did that look like and feel like? And then most people also know what the opposite is like. So what has felt the most exclusionary? What has felt the most unsafe? What were the conditions and behaviors in that environment? So how do I contribute to those environments? What kind of environment am I leading right now? What do I think I’m bleeding? If I really don’t know? Oh, this is a good time to ask your team and say truly vulnerably. I’m asking because I need the gift of your feedback.

(29:38):
I need to know I need to grow. I’m in a moment where I’m curious and people tend to kind of say, okay, I’m willing to tell you the truth. I had teams who tell me the truth many, many years ago and said, Ingrid, you’re not vulnerable with us. I remember being like, what do you mean I show up every day and no, in that time of my career, they’re like, it never seems like you allow for there to be anything but perfection, and we’re not sure where we stand at that. I’m like, oh, wow. It really was a wake up call. So sometimes you need these moments of feedback to say, how am I creating psychologically safe environments for the team? If you don’t know and if your team’s not telling you, that’s a signal. I also find truly listening to understand, listening to what people say and slowing down is just a basic foundation to go back to and leading with curiosity. Like I recognize I’ve been speaking a lot in this meeting and I haven’t heard from a few of you and want to understand what is the best way for me to get your input because your input’s so important to me or to experiment where if everybody is sharing their ideas in your meeting, how do you help create this environment where each person has to respond to the first person or the other person who just went their idea and build off of that? Because that means they truly have to listen.

Hannah Beaver (31:07):
So

Ingrid Hu Dahl (31:07):
Are remodeling, deep listening, curiosity and clarity. If people like Ingrid, I do not know what is going on right now, I don’t know my high priority, well, it’s my job to make sure that that’s really clear. It’s not their fault that they don’t know. So creating that environment where people can say things like that, and for me as a leader to feel safe that I can say, oh, I don’t know. Let me go find out. Let’s find out together. That’s important. It’s not on me to know everything. That’s not my job. In fact, it’s more my job to have experts who know more things than me and I help just simply curating an experience for them to thrive and for me to thrive. I think having that growth mindset, even if it just means starting out conversations that are scary with your fear and with a hope, gosh, my fear is that I’m going to share this feedback with you and it might be taken in this way, and I really want you to hear this.

(32:06):
I care about you and the team. My hope is that you’ll take this feedback and we’ll experiment in this whole different way, which is going to be revitalizing our team. Hearing that helps people let go of their guard and their ego. We all lead with the ego. I think inclusive leadership requires us to relax the ego, really understand what’s happening, be curious about our own self-awareness, our social awareness, our relationship management in a way that’s not force controlled or from our own biased viewpoint. We’re not always right. We always come in this position of I’m right, they’re wrong. I believe what’s happening is this. And again, nine times out of 10, it’s not usually what you thought. I really love RCA Tea, Oltra beautiful big think plus episode where she brings up the bridge framework and the very last part of bridge, which I want to double down hope listeners go and watch. That is so good. But the very last letter is expect that change takes time. So similar to what I’ve been saying about slowing down and really leading from this heart center and being rebellious about no, in this moment of big push, I’m going to slow down and bring these people together. It will take time. So really know that change. Expect to take time.

Hannah Beaver (33:40):
So you’ve written about the advice that you would give to your younger self that she already belongs, and softness isn’t weakness, which I think is beautiful piece of advice. What would you tell an emerging leader today who is curious about rebellion but afraid of rocking the boat?

Ingrid Hu Dahl (33:59):
Please rock the boat. We need you to rock the boat. Leaders might not like that, but explain why you’re rocking the boat that you’re curious about it. Maybe we all tip over. It’s okay. Maybe we can all stand and maybe it’s really shallow water. Maybe we can go somewhere else. We don’t have to be in the river. I know we’re looking at a very hypothetical kind of analogy here, but I think that’s what this is going to take and for leaders to be curious about why that person’s doing that. I think for emerging leaders, don’t underestimate how you have a beginner growth mindset can be an incredibly added benefit to these environments that have been around for a long time who need to be shaken up. I love the sort of pirate approach to challenging the status quo. People aren’t going to like it. Not everyone’s going to like it, but the people who really care about innovation and change, who love seeing where things can evolve and transform, will pay attention and find the people who are champions of that because they exist. So what I hope people don’t do who’s an emerging leader is face a door and turn away. That door is one of multiple frames. Just keep challenging the door. Challenge the actual framing of the door. See if there’s a way around it. Maybe there are other doors. Just don’t let the social construct of whatever system you’re in dictate the maze and the path only goes this way or that you can challenge that and it’s time. It’s time for that to change. What

Hannah Beaver (35:47):
Is the best piece of leadership advice that you’ve ever received?

Ingrid Hu Dahl (35:53):
I love advice that I’ve received from many people, but this one I loved in particular. Being nice isn’t the same thing as being kind,

(36:05):
And that was by a female leader, and I loved it because for people who might be kind of a bit more people pleasing, nice isn’t what people trust. They trust kindness. So when you’re having a really difficult conversation, maybe you’re giving hard feedback to deliver with a lot of care and directness. I also remember one of the hardest feedback sessions I receive from a boss that I love and I’m still close with, and she did it with a lot of kindness because nice, you can kind of sugarcoat or maybe you’re not really saying the thing because you want to be liked and you want it to seem like, don’t be mad at me, I’m just the messenger, and you’re like, no, I’m going to put myself the rebel, the pirate, the person who’s going to tell you this thing that no one else was willing or brave enough to tell you because I care and I can do it in a way that’s kind. So again, love that. Being nice is not the same thing as being kind. So be kind.

Hannah Beaver (37:12):
Thanks so much for listening. For more from Ingrid, check out our show notes where we’ve linked her book, her website, and some links to some upcoming in-person events. For more from How to Make a Leader, make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode. We’ll be back next month and every month with more insights from another L and D expert. We’ll catch you next time as we learn How to Make a Leader.

Ingrid Hu Dahl believes the most effective leaders are those who intentionally break rules, challenging the status quo.

With diverse experience as a punk-rock musician, executive coach and L&D leader at Gap, Meta and Capital One, Ingrid offers a radically human perspective on leadership – one that is rooted in rebellion and genuine connection. She shares personal stories and learnings about why the best leaders are the rebels who dare to challenge the status quo and lead with authenticity.

You’ll learn:
– Why rebellion is a powerful force in leadership
– Fast reset tools to reduce workplace stress
– How to break toxic patterns in traditional leadership cultures
– How to lead with empathy and inclusion in high-stress environments

Things to listen for:
(00:00) Introducing Ingrid Hu Dahl
(02:43) Rebellion as a foundation for authentic leadership
(04:07) The parallels of young musicians and high-performing teams
(05:41) Coaching executives through fear, doubt, and isolation
(10:09) Leading with empathy in high-stress environments
(12:07) Fast reset tools to reduce workplace stress
(16:20) Writing a memoir and not a leadership book
(21:49) Breaking toxic patterns in traditional leadership cultures
(25:12) Bringing experimentation and play into team culture
(28:38) Daily behaviors that define inclusive leadership today
(33:40) Advice for leaders who are ready to rebel

About Ingrid Hu Dahl:

Ingrid Hu Dahl is an author, speaker, and leadership coach. She is the founder of a coaching and consulting business dedicated to empowering the next generation of leaders. With over two decades of experience in learning and development, she brings her expertise to a wide range of industries, from corporate and media to nonprofit and social justice organizations. 

A TEDx speaker and a founding member of the Willie Mae Rock Camp in Brooklyn, Ingrid has a lifelong passion for amplifying underrepresented voices. She has written, filmed, and directed two short films exploring identity, representation, and the mixed-race experience. And, she has toured in multiple rock bands, playing bass, guitar, synth, drums, and singing.

Ingrid is certified by the International Coaching Federation and the Center for Creative Leadership. She is a global lecturer and speaker, and an advisory board member for the Institute for Women’s Leadership at Rutgers University. She lives in Sausalito, California, with her wife, Courtney, and their dog, Palo Santo.

• Invite Ingrid to be a speaker, facilitator, consultant or leadership coach: www.IngridHuDahl.com 
• Buy Ingrid’s book and get it signed at one of her upcoming events: www.SunShiningonMorningSnow.com

• Check out Ingrid’s interview in Authority Magazine: “The Hidden Superpower of Every Great Leader: Ingrid Hu Dahl On Uncovering the Traits That Separate Good Leaders from Exceptional Ones”
• Read Ingrid’s article for Women in Leadership: “Leading with Heart and Wading Through Fear—How Women Can Drop Control and Embrace Their Power”