The David Senra interview: “Use history as a form of leverage”

“My approach is: if someone had a 40-year career, I’ll spend 40 hours reading about that career, and then give you the most important insights from my readings in 40 minutes.”

That’s how David Senra describes the concept behind (and appeal of) Founders, the hit podcast in which he dissects the life and work of remarkably successful individuals — one biography at a time.

Where other podcasters in the same arena tend to focus on big, present-day names like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Sam Altman, Senra’s insatiable curiosity has led him to cover entrepreneurs of all shapes, sizes, nationalities, and eras. For every episode on Apple, Amazon or SpaceX, there’s another on Estée Lauder or the Michelin brothers.

Nor does Senra limit himself to people who are, first and foremost, “businessfolks.” When he isn’t reviewing annual shareholder letters or narrating how Ted Turner, John D. Rockefeller, or Mr. Beast built their respective empires, he’s looking into the numbers behind Haruki Murakami’s books or Quentin Tarantino’s movies.

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Also on the menu are books about the teachings of the Greek philosopher Socrates and French general Napoleon Bonaparte. As far as Senra is concerned, these topics aren’t off-brand. Far from it. Founders isn’t just about what we can learn from CEOs and other species of C-suite dweller, but also from inventors, rebels, and revolutionaries: in short, from anyone who dared to do something new and original.

As someone who has devoted the better part of his adult life to studying successful people, Senra has not only learned a thing or two about the nature of success itself, but also about the art of finding good role models. 

In the following interview, the founder of Founders reveals how he picks his heroes, and how he chooses what to learn from them.

Big Think: What do all the successful, innovative founders you have covered on your podcast have in common?

Senra: I feel like I’m reading about the same person over and over again. They’re all super secretive, they do the same thing over and over again, and do it for the sake of achieving excellence. That said, if I had to distill every single thing I’ve learned — and I’ve been doing this for almost 9 years now, and have read almost 400 biographies and autobiographies — into one word, it would be focus. The founder of Luxottica, Leonardo del Vecchio, about whom I’m reading right now, began working on an idea when he was in his early 20s, and kept at it until he died at 87.

Big Think: Many of the characters you cover had turbulent private lives. To what extent would you say that their secret weapon — their drive — is also their Achilles heel?

Senra: For Michael Ferrero, the inventor of Nutella and Ferrero Rocher, extreme professional success came at the expense of other areas of his life. He was married three times, and you have to wonder: what kind of person gets divorced over and over?

I remember reading about James Cameron, the filmmaker who directed Titanic and Avatar, two of the highest grossing films of all time. He’s obviously very intelligent, very driven, but — according to sources — also obsessive and, allegedly, highly disagreeable and difficult to deal with. He’s obsessed with control and — again — was married multiple times.

Take this guy Larry Miller, who I talked about in episode 168 and who at one point became the single richest entrepreneur in the entire state of Utah. Like many other people who reach the top of their profession, he had a strong drive instilled in him early in his life, when he was kicked out of his home and arrested multiple times. He felt like a loser, and developed a burning desire for success.

At the end of his life, he owned around 93 separate businesses. It was said that the average resident of Utah couldn’t go a week without spending money on something he owned — car dealerships, movie theaters, race tracks. And yet, as he lay dying, he said the following to his biographer: “I live in a 30,000 square foot house and own a basketball team, but my life is a cautionary tale. All I did was work. I don’t know my kids, and started to spend time with grandkids to try and rectify that mistake. I didn’t take care of my health. I didn’t have any fun.”

Very few people will go through life getting exactly what they want. Still, the question is not just what you want to do, but also what you’re willing to trade for it.

Big Think: Many well-known investors, CEOs, and self-made millionaires call themselves loyal listeners to Founders. Aside from entertainment value, what do you think they get out of it?

Senra: They all understand that learning is a form of leverage, to borrow the wise words of Charlie Munger. [Former real estate billionaire] Sam Zell, a podcast listener I met and talked to before he passed away, had this encyclopedic knowledge of business history in his head. He used this knowledge to analyze deals, businesses, and investment decisions. I remember when he was asked about WeWork he said, “It will go to zero. It’s not worth anything.” He saw WeWork as an asset-liability mismatch. People would kind of shrug him off, but he was dead right. He understood [that] slapping a shiny logo on top, offering free beer and calling it a community, that doesn’t fix a fundamental business model problem.

Big Think: Which is more valuable to an entrepreneur, studying current competitors or past predecessors?

Senra: In general, I would encourage people to use history as a form of leverage because — while events don’t repeat exactly — human behavior does. In the end, business is ultimately about people, right? The quality of the “alpha” in a company or corporation, its competitive edge, comes largely from the people they work with.

I just finished reading Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations. That was written, what — more than two thousand years ago? Still, the exact same issues this Roman emperor grappled with, I can relate to. Why? Because he was dealing with people. Human nature doesn’t change. It never has, and it never will.

I actually think that’s something a lot of entrepreneurs miss. I talk to all kinds of founders — tech folks, people in traditional businesses, infrastructure, shipping, software, you name it. And with the tech crowd in particular, what they often get wrong is this belief that “this time is different.” But it’s not different. It’s never different, really.

Big Think: There’s been a lot of talk about work-life balance in recent years. Does that still apply when your job is your passion, and a source of energy?

Senra: I like being obsessed. I have an obsessive personality and a family history of drug and alcohol abuse. The reason I don’t do drugs or alcohol is because of my work. It’s either 0 or 100 for me. I either don’t want to work at all, or work every single hour I can. So, I don’t have a balance. Instead, I try to achieve — as Jeff Bezos put it — a work-life harmony. There’s no balance, but there is harmony. I work a lot, but also make sure to take breaks to spend time with people I love.

Big Think: How do you select your books?

Senra: I personally think the world has enough critics and that we need more enthusiasts. To some extent it’s human nature — it’s easy to criticize and to judge, but I’d much rather spend my life talking about things I love than things I don’t like.

Big Think: History has no shortage of people who made fortunes by doing awful things — how do you navigate this?

Senra: Will and Ariel Durant, two of my favorite historians and authors of a book called The Lessons of History, wrote: “In every age we have found men to be dishonest and governments corrupt.” So, when I see something happening — whether it’s in my own country or another — my reaction isn’t “Oh my God, how can this be?” so much as “Yep. That’s how it’s always been.”

Henry Ford is a good example. He’s one of my favorites in terms of his philosophy on work. You could summarize his entire autobiography in five words: maximum value at minimum cost. I love the way he thought about building for the long term, and think his autobiography should be mandatory reading for anyone trying to do something ambitious.

It’s one thing to invent a new product. He literally changed the geography of the world. Before Ford, you were walking or riding a horse. Cars were luxury items for the rich. He changed that — he figured out how to mass-produce the automobile. Just like the Wright brothers changed the sky, Ford changed the ground beneath us. That’s an incredible accomplishment.

Of course, at the same time — he was a deeply flawed person. He was obsessive about controlling people’s behavior. He was anti-Semitic and highly racist, and bonded with Hitler over that. While I don’t excuse it, I focus on his ideas around his work and business. I’m not going to pretend the rest didn’t happen, but I also can’t change it. If anything, you have to realize that this absolute genius of an entrepreneur could also fall for absurd, toxic ideas. He was a genius at his craft, and a fool in other areas. So in studying his life, we should ask ourselves: How can I aim to be truly great in my work, capture that upside, but avoid the deep moral and intellectual failings?

Big Think: The business of podcasting has become oversaturated. As a listener, how can you distinguish the cream from the slop?

Senra: I try to contemplate why someone is doing what they’re doing. I know some people at Spotify, and they told me that one of their biggest mistakes was backing celebrities instead of podcasters. They assumed that people would listen, but they didn’t. Why? Because those celebrities didn’t care about podcasting. For them, it was just another way to make some extra money.

Meanwhile, I literally paid to podcast. For like two years, I was making zero money. I sacrificed other work opportunities and used my savings to fund the show. It took four years just to make enough money to pay my bills. Charlie Munger once said that intelligent people make decisions based on opportunity cost. If I choose to spend an hour listening to a podcast, that means I’m saying no to every other podcast during that time. So again, when I think about creators, whether it’s podcasters or writers, I always ask: what’s their motivation?

Big Think: There are people who would argue that the role founders play in the success of their companies is wildly overrated, and borders on idolatry and hero-worship. What’s your response to that?

Senra: I believe founders are some of the most important people in the world. And when I say “founders,” I don’t just mean company founders. I mean anyone who looks at the world and says, “This thing doesn’t exist, and I’m going to dedicate my life and energy to creating it.” That thing could be an idea, a business, or even a country.

I recently had a conversation with Brad Jacobs, the only person I know who has created eight different billion-dollar companies. He said, “The founder is the ignition source — the spark of the fire.” Without them, nothing starts. Of course, companies grow. Brad now has more than 150,000 employees working for him, and he says he now gets way too much credit. So both of these things are true. Running a successful business is a huge team effort, but there are no businesses without founders.

Jeff Bezos is one of my personal heroes. People protested his wedding and how much money he spent on it, but I’m like: this guy invented a magic button. I press it, and in 12 hours, anything I want shows up at my doorstep. Do people realize how hard it is to make something like that work? He made that possible. He hid the complexity from us.